Blog

Source: Ministers for Social Services

2 February 2025

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

Topics: NDIS; Foundational Supports; The Budget, Antisemitism; Nature Positive bill; Peter Dutton’s proposed investor visa.

ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST:    Joining me live is the new NDIS Minister. She replaced Bill Shorten about a month ago, Amanda Rishworth, thanks for your time. Let me start with this news I’ve just revealed. Can you tell us what is the nature of the one-year deal being offered by the PM on Foundational Support money for the NDIS and why is it being tied to the hospital agreement?

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR THE NATIONAL DISABILTY INSURANCE SCHEME:    Firstly, I would say it’s not new that we are working with the states and territories to develop Foundational Supports. In fact, I have been working with my counterparts to work out the design of Foundational Supports, what they might look like and how we might go forward on that in terms of the agreements with states and territories. There are a lot of agreements with states and territories that our government is progressing. Certainly, the health reform is one of those. NDIS reform is another one. So, there is a lot of agreements to land with states and territories and what I’ve been doing is working very hard to put some meat on the bones about what we would be funding with Foundational Supports. 

ANDREW CLENNELL:    Well, you say it’s not new. The fact it’s a one-year deal is new, isn’t it, that you’re looking at?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    We’ve been working towards Foundational Supports for a long time. I’m not privy to the First Ministers negotiations, but I’ve been working very much with the idea of how we stand up supports outside the NDIS that are there to support people that may not need the intensity that the NDIS provides. So, the First Ministers will continue to have their discussions, but I’m certainly working on what Foundational Support looks like. How do we roll those out and how do we make a difference outside side of the scheme so that there are supports available.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    Do you expect states to be providing these Foundational Supports by mid-year as envisioned? Are the states fair dinkum about this or could the deal just collapse?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    It’s never been expected that all the Foundational Supports would be stood up this year. Indeed, as the review outlined, they will have to be rolled out in a progressive way. But we’ve had good cooperation with states and territories. Just one example of a system change that we have with South Australia, for example, is what’s called the Inklings program. And the idea of that is to provide intervention before there is a diagnosis to ensure that children are put on a strong developmental pathway and don’t need the NDIS. There is already work being done around what these systems look like outside the NDIS. But we’ll keep working with the states and territories to start sending these supports up.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    What money are you proposing to give the states to deliver these services which can act as a NDIS substitute? Is there a danger of just cost shifting from the NDIS or are there going to be real savings here?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    Let’s be clear. The NDIS is a joint endeavour by states and territories and the Commonwealth, and they co-govern. But what we’re talking about, and the review made it clear, is that for some people, for some children as well, that may have developmental delay, they might be served outside of the scheme with lower intensity supports. So, they don’t require the full individualised plan that is provided by the NDIS. And just in the nature of the way the supports will be delivered, they will be a lower cost. But I have to say, Andrew, when it comes to sustainability of the NDIS, Foundational Supports are not the only element that goes to sustainability. There is a lot of work we’ve been doing and will continue to do to improve the sustainability of the scheme and to hit that 8 per cent growth target which we are on track for.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    I’m told, in terms of saving money through the Foundational Support one example is the Federal Government would want schools to have a staff speech pathologist, for example, rather than have say 10 private speech pathologists visit schools to see students one on one. Is that a good example of what you’re trying to achieve here?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:   I don’t want to be so prescriptive because we’re still working through it, but a good example would be if a child might have some fine motor delay. Rather than an individualised plan that has a range of different supports they might be serviced with, for example, some adaptive technology like some specialised cutlery that helps them with their fine motor skills and perhaps some periodic OT input rather than a full individualised plan that gets reassessed and re put in place every single year. So, they are the types of things that we are looking at. How do you provide much more targeted, much more often episodic or periodic interventions that do not require this sort of individualised plan. I don’t think anyone accepted that for children with developmental delay that they would have an individualised plan for a lifetime. That certainly was not the vision for the scheme which is for significant and permanent impairment. So, we’ve got to work and identify these. Things look different in different states and that’s why systems are different in different states, and we will be working with each state and territory about what that looks like and how it might be delivered.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    How did we get to the point where something like 35 per cent of people on this scheme have autism? Could there be closer scrutiny of who gets this support? When this scheme was set up, it was for people with significant and permanent disability. There was even an ANU study in 2023 which suggested there were more autism diagnoses in this country and that could be linked to accessing the NDIS.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    What the review said, Andrew, was that with the NDIS the only level of support, I think the review said is the only lifeboat in the ocean. Of course it has led to people gravitate to get support. That is partly what I said Foundational Supports are about. It’s also partly that there are two pathways in the NDIS. Firstly, the permanent and significant pathway and then there’s the early intervention pathway. And for me, I want to make sure that the early intervention pathway is making a difference, that it is evidence based and that we are seeing interventions that improve the developmental trajectory of a child, so that they don’t need to, on an ongoing basis, actually rely on the NDIS. The NDIS was never designed that it would be diagnosis driven. It was about functional capacity and what supports you need. We need to get back to having a focus on that and also make sure for those that may need a lower intensity of support, that it’s out there in the broader community through different service systems. And that’s what we’re working to. And quite frankly it’s been really left to drift under the previous government. There wasn’t the sustained focus. Now Former Minister Shorten had a sustained focus on this and I will continue that.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    When Julia Gillard rose in the Parliament to announce this scheme, she said there were more than 400,000 people living with significant and permanent disabilities. And then 13 years later, we have 650,000 participants of the scheme. How many people do you envisage in say three to five years being on this scheme?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I don’t have those projections, but I have to say what’s driving the scheme is or the costs in the scheme is not only the number of participants on the Scheme. It has been identified that intra-plan inflation also has an impact on the fiscal elements of the Scheme. So, while numbers are important, we’ve got to make sure that eligibility is correct and that it’s significant and permanent. And the supports put in place are about supporting people with supports that are reasonable and necessary. It is not just the numbers that are driving the cost. Here we had a situation where we’ve put some new rules in place to be clear about what’s funded and what’s not. There were grey areas about what is funded, what was not, and so we were seeing some confusion around that. We’ve put very clear guidelines now about what should be funded and what shouldn’t be funded. We’ve also put some clear guidelines about how people manage their budgets and their plans, and also make sure, for example, that there isn’t service providers gouging participants. It’s taken a lot of work to look at how we bring these costs down. Just to give you an example, 2021-22, when the previous government was in charge, there was a 23 per cent growth in the cost of the scheme. 2024-25 we have been able to bring that down to about 12 per cent.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    It’s still 12 per cent. Your target’s eight per cent. Let me ask you this, I appreciate your point on the numbers, but Julia Gillard spoke about 400,000. We’ve now got 650,000. Could you envisage a million Australians being on the NDIS? Because it looks like we’re headed that way.

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I don’t think that’s right to characterise the trajectory. I’ll just give you an example. Recently, the numbers were revised of the number of Australians living with disability in this country, and it’s 5.5 million people. So, if we look at the numbers that are on the NDIS, it is certainly not all people living with disability in Australia. And of course, that 5.5 million had been revised, up from over 4.5 million. So, we are seeing the trajectory of people reporting disability increase in this country across the board. Not all of them are on the NDIS. In fact, only a small proportion of people are getting support from the NDIS. And that’s why we’ve got to be continuing to work hard to look at what other supports we can give people to make sure that they don’t need necessarily the NDIS but can get support elsewhere.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    Peter Dutton’s spoken about cutting 36,000 public servants. Your predecessor, Bill Shorten, won the budget support to hire another 1,000 public servants in a bid to get the NDIS under control. In particular to look at eligibility for the scheme, what progress have they so far made and what sort of people are now being rejected from the scheme that were being accepted?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I need to be clear in terms of the early intervention pathway, there has always been a reassessment at six years of age and nine years of age, because we’re hoping, of course, that the early interventions has made a difference and those children do not require the scheme anymore. Thee work that’s been undertaken is to make sure that those reassessments have happened. When Peter Dutton talks about cutting public servants, what he’s saying is he doesn’t want those reassessments to happen. He doesn’t want to make sure that plans are done efficiently, effectively and quickly. Is he planning to cut the Fraud Fusion Task Force? Because there was no focus on fraud in the NDIS previously. That requires people from across agencies to make sure that taxpayers money is spent correctly and is not gouged. When it comes to my other hat as Social Services Minister, is he talking about pensioners waiting on the phone for longer? These are frontline public servants that are making a difference. But importantly, when it comes to the NDIS, paying attention to all these elements that the previous government dropped, whether it’s fraud, whether it’s reassessment, whether it’s proper efficient planning, whether it’s responsiveness when people have a query, they are the public servants that Peter Dutton is talking about.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    I just want to get through a couple more things. When it comes to a possible budget, we don’t know if it’s happening or during the election campaign the PM, Treasurer and Finance Minister have flagged more cost-of-living assistance. I ask you, in your social services portfolio, do you expect to be promising more in terms of rental assistance or in terms of welfare benefits or pension payments?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    We’ve been working through the budget process and Andrew; you’ll be not surprised. I won’t be announcing what will be in the budget here today, but when it comes to supporting people with cost of living, it’s clear. Two rent assistance increases that have led to the largest rent assistance in over 30 years. Of course we’ve increased other payments, we’ve improved arrangements for the pension, supporting pensioners with cost of living, we’ve supported more pensioners onto the concession card, helping them with cost doctors. Of course, there’s been medicines and a range of other cost of living measures. So, we’ve got a strong record when it comes to supporting people right across the board, including our tax cuts. Look, I’m going to say watch out on budget night. I know you’re an avid watcher of the budget and all will be revealed on budget night.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    It sounds like you think there is a budget, Amanda Rishworth. I’m not so confident we’ll see in good time. I wanted to ask now about but this issue of the anti-Semitic attacks and the criticism of the Prime Minister in terms of either he didn’t get briefings, and he should investigate it. That’s what Peter Dutton and the opposition say. Or another version I’ve heard is he’s hearing things but not broadcasting them. There Is a fine balance here, isn’t there? Could it be politically detrimental for the Government if he doesn’t look on top of it? The Prime Minister?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I think this is a ridiculous criticism from Peter Dutton and just shows that all he wants to do is play politics with what is a really serious issue. It is unacceptable that there are people of Jewish faith feeling unsafe in this country. But for the Government it is about being responsible in making sure people are actually safe, not playing politics. And I have to say, ensuring police and security agencies, can do their job and keep the community safe should be, in my view, the number one outcome we all want to see. So, if the leader of the Opposition just wants to play politics with this then he should be condemned, quite frankly, because it is about what leads to safety in our community. That should be a priority of every member of Parliament.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    Health Minister Mark Butler made an announcement Friday concerning the establishment of an inquiry into the use of gender changing medicine. Is this a bid to head off Peter Dutton doing a Donald Trump on this issue this year?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    These guidelines have not been reviewed since 2018. It is timely that the guidelines be reviewed with the most up to date evidence, particularly when we’re talking about children. As a mum I would like to know that the guidelines are absolutely up to date, we’ve got proper medical evidence on the table and that young people in this country are getting the best possible medical care. So, it is timely that the evidence is looked at, that the input from research is added and that we have the most up to date medical guidelines in this country.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    The Nature Positive bill, it looks dead in this term of Parliament. The Prime Minister is going to pull it. I understand?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I think it’s clear that The Greens keep making more and more extreme demands. Peter Dutton has been incredibly oppositional to this will not even engage. This is despite the Samuel review identifying that both businesses wanted faster approvals, and we needed stronger protections for our environment. But with this type of opposition and people not willing to have discussions and make compromises, I think it’s clear that we won’t be able to pursue this piece of legislation in the Parliament.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    What do you make of these comments by Peter Dutton at a fundraiser that he might reintroduce this significant investor visa and him trying to re-establish relations with the Chinese Australian community?

AMANDA RISHWORTH:    I would say when it comes to migration, it just shows Peter Dutton likes to talk a lot of political game. But when it comes down to taking action, he failed to support our legislation to put a cap on international students. After being lobbied against that, he has now signalled that he will bring back a visa that we abolished. It really does show that he’s not serious when it comes to tackling our migration system. But we shouldn’t be surprised because he left it in a complete mess when he was in charge. And of course, you know, we’re getting down to the political season. You know, there’ll be a lot of political statements made clearly in the leader of the opposition’s case, it is contradictory from one day to the other, but that’s politics and that’s an election season.

ANDREW CLENNELL:    We’ll have plenty more of it. Amanda Rishworth, thanks so much for your time.

MIL OSI News –